Paradigm Concepts

[mininin]

Hi all,
Long time watcher, first time poster.

I've taken over the GM position at our group full time to make the characters experiences consistent. We're trying to follow the living Arcanis rules so that should it come to a con we're compatible but I'm struggling with the problem of making a vanquishing seem like an issue. Character death under the old system was rare but possible, under the new system though it feels like unless the entire party is vanquished and then punished or eaten that come the end of combat the healer just fires up his diminish fatigue and everyone is fine again for the next encounter. It seems to totally devalue minion only encounters (which are almost never worth running as little loot, little experience and no real resource consumption). I know that wounds can result in reduced stats etc but given that they happen so rarely (I usually only roll double 10 when using area of effect stuff) this has never been a hindrance. Immediately targeting the healer would make life more awkward for them but isn't always realistic (as well as annoying for that character).
How do we get the players to be concerned about their characters when there doesn't seem to be any threat to them unless a tpk is in the offing?


Also,
Strong soul for Dwarves? Any way around this? When he hits 0 stamina and is still chunking out the damage it's only realistic for the bad guys to keep targeting him but when he ends up on negative 150% of his stamina and is still standing shouldn't there be some consequence I can throw his way?

Many thanks for your help.

[Nierite]

The whole "Target the Healer first" is a D&D trope, and does not fit well with this situation. The way to get people to work together (from my GMing) is to target enemies where they'll do the most damage to the party as a whole.

For example, if you have a caster in the party who does area of effect spells and a lot of people wielding Tralian Hammers or Greatswords, the AoE guy is way better against minions. What the baddies do is take out/down/neutralize the AoE guy and have the Minions swarm the guys with the slow weapons. The slow guys can take out only one or two minions unless they have sweeping strike, so they are locked up taking damage.

The best way to play as a party is to have effects that complement eachother. My group is mostly non-magic characters, with a Pugilist for Minion control along with a Sweeper, a guy with Healing hands to help deal with the effects of Wounds, an Archer in case we have ranged opponents or casters, and a Heavy hitter for big baddies.
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Cody Bergman

aka = Haakon Marcus val'Virdan, Priest of Nier (Divine 1.
aka = Dyabe val'Abebi, Templar of Althares (Divine 1.4)
aka = Jorma Ostoman, Battlemage of the Coryani Empire (Arcane 1.2)

[Deviknyte]

[Pickles]

I have been wondering the same thing after a handful of games. It is really hard to kill characters, requiring critical hits & bad recovery rolls. This is like Rolemaster & Runequest & was never very satisfying there, though at least it happened in combat.

On the other hand a TPK looms if too many characters go down. D&D4 has the same issue where characters are hard to kill & in fact I have seen more TPK than single chaacter deaths.

Being left behind is a reallistic threat though in my experience players are very reluctant to retreat.

[Deviknyte]

Well from a GM stand point a TPK sucks. You've ruined your own storyline at that point.

From a player's stand point at least your all on the same ground with a TPK. You're not the only one at level one.
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-Devin Redd, Detroit Harvester
"The Elorii shall rise again!"
Current- Vaerdos kyr'Taliis, Ardakene Elorii Chanter of the Rebirth and the Bright People
Retired- Elysian, Ardakene Elorii Hierophant of Belisarda

[Pickles]

Indeed which is why it is a concern that it seems to be the only threat in Arcanis.

Has anyone who has played a lot seen many player deaths outside of TPKs to reassure us?

TBH I I am not sure I need real threat to my characters to enjoy RPGs. Some feeling of danger that is quckly dispelled & the chance to do cool things will keep me going.

[Deviknyte]

[PCIHenry]

Hello,

The idea behind being "Vanquished" as opposed to just having a Character die was based upon the fact that USUALLY, no one stayed dead in Fantasy RPGs. There were scrolls of Raise Dead or the local priest could cast Resurrection - so the only consequence was the loss of money, which most PC's had buckets of.

So we decided that getting knocked out of the fight and possibly losing your stuff, rather than your life was more potent. And Heaven fore fend if the opponents who beat you left you alive but took your shiny new Rune Weapon.

By eliminating the ubiquitous availability of such scrolls and spells also adds a dimension that had been lacking, IMO, in most fantasy games - the awe and mystery of actual miracles, such as a person touching another on the heart and bring them back to life. Before it was, "Yawn, he must be a Cleric of X level". Now it's , "Who the heck is THAT guy?"
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Henry Lopez
President
Paradigm Concepts, Inc.

[Dead.Zone]

[mininin]

I really liked a couple of the modules where it specifies the non-fatal but humiliating way the players get dumped without their gear if they lose, but in those there was little danger of the players losing unless they seriously messed up. A couple others though that do have big challenges in the combat have mortal consequences for the characters. It's not a save or die situation but again either the guys just lose their stuff (annoying but funny) or total party death (few players I know would run away and leave their colleagues to a certain death if there was even a glimmer of a chance they could pull it back). I'm rambling a bit now but I suppose that having a 'big bad' be able to kill someone, not that he has to just that he can, does underscore the dangerousness of the characters current situation.

[StatMonkey]

[Deviknyte]

@Pedro: I think some peoples problems with the vanquishing instead of dying is in modules. Where most encounters are not to kill. Although I'm going to be honest, the encounters that have actually scared me were to kill or had Harvester Thrall kidnaps in them. Most people know that at home they bend the rules as needed to scares. I think it makes the shared sanctioned campaign a little more fun without that looming death always there.
_________________
-Devin Redd, Detroit Harvester
"The Elorii shall rise again!"
Current- Vaerdos kyr'Taliis, Ardakene Elorii Chanter of the Rebirth and the Bright People
Retired- Elysian, Ardakene Elorii Hierophant of Belisarda

[mininin]

It is the campaign aspect that makes things harder as you don't want the players to feel they have lost the flow by needing a new character but you do want the danger element. I'll be reading more on Sealing their Fates momentarily. I have thought about targeting downed characters but it seems a bit cruel and specific, an unusually high damage roll players can grimace and bear with a good tale to tell but if they feel that the GM has singled them out for death- even when logical and fitting the Villains remit character and combat wise can lead to tension in the game. I don't blame them and they don't blame me (too much I hope) but I tend to roll with the why risk it. Intelligent foes will target intelligently including going after healers and caster (dang you Blood Boil!) while brutes will target the closest or most damaging thing (for them). Keeps it simple and fairish. Absolutely love the Eye Beam though. Especially when I have the first round of combat initiative Bwah Hah Hah!

[PCIHenry]

Hello,

Perhaps we have different ideas on how a game should run, but I don't see the need to kill Heroes to give them a sense of risk.

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that one should NEVER go gunning after characters. If they're down, unless the creature is a bloodthirsty beast, the adversary will move on to the next greatest threat.

I find that player's dislike being "beaten" in the story more than just getting killed. A Chronicler can kill anyone if they really want to (cheating of course). What really gets most of the player's I've encountered visibly upset os when they are outsmarted by the villain and his/her/its plans.

Just my 2 centus.
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Henry Lopez
President
Paradigm Concepts, Inc.

[Archangel]

Just a nit pick on what Henry said. You shouldn't be gunning to kill PCs but the players should know you are willing to kill the PC. As always it depends on the type of enemy and the circumstances.