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Archerday
Joined: 19 Jan 2012
Posts: 61
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 Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:24 pm Post subject: Universal spells and Traditions |
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Hi!
If I didn't get all universal spells at character creation, but gain Tier I Arcanum at Tier 1.3, can I choose Universal as one of my Traditions to pick a universal spell? My initial reaction is 'yes' given that it is, by definition, a "universal tradition" however I'd rather just get the clarification now rather than risk a problem at a table. Thanks in advance!!
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Archangel
Joined: 15 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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Unless I am mistaken you can not pick universal as one of your options. It has an explicit list of traditions to pick from when gaining Arcane Spell Casting (based on your specialization). You could however always use Learn Spell to pick up one of the missing ones from Universal.
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Archerday
Joined: 19 Jan 2012
Posts: 61
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:48 pm Post subject: Universal tradition choices |
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| Right, but that's the point of being a 'universal' tradition is that it would be redundant to list it in every category. The definition of universal in this context means a 'tradition that every type of arcanum gets.' And, obviously, the caster already has access to that tradition because of the prereq of Prestidigitation. Although I'm not going to burn an arcanum Tier tradition selection on it myself, I think, as a judge, I would permit others to do so. The question is, is that person's character LA legal? Thanks so much for the help! |
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Nierite
Joined: 20 Jan 2010
Posts: 1721
Location: Edmonton, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:13 pm Post subject: Re: Universal tradition choices |
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| Archerday wrote: | | Right, but that's the point of being a 'universal' tradition is that it would be redundant to list it in every category. The definition of universal in this context means a 'tradition that every type of arcanum gets.' And, obviously, the caster already has access to that tradition because of the prereq of Prestidigitation. Although I'm not going to burn an arcanum Tier tradition selection on it myself, I think, as a judge, I would permit others to do so. The question is, is that person's character LA legal? Thanks so much for the help! |
You get Universal spells from Prestidigitation, not the Spellcasting traditions. You only gain ALL of the Universal spells if you take Prestidigitation at character creation.
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aka = Haakon Marcus val'Virdan, Priest of Nier (Divine 1.
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aka = Jorma Ostoman, Battlemage of the Coryani Empire (Arcane 1.2) |
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hustonj
Joined: 30 Jun 2010
Posts: 1079
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:57 pm Post subject: Re: Universal tradition choices |
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| Nierite wrote: | | Archerday wrote: | | Right, but that's the point of being a 'universal' tradition is that it would be redundant to list it in every category. The definition of universal in this context means a 'tradition that every type of arcanum gets.' And, obviously, the caster already has access to that tradition because of the prereq of Prestidigitation. Although I'm not going to burn an arcanum Tier tradition selection on it myself, I think, as a judge, I would permit others to do so. The question is, is that person's character LA legal? Thanks so much for the help! |
You get Universal spells from Prestidigitation, not the Spellcasting traditions. You only gain ALL of the Universal spells if you take Prestidigitation at character creation. |
Almost correct. You only get all the Universal Spells if you take Prestidigitation and a "full" spell casting Talent in the same step of character creation or character advancement.
There are currently no valid ways to acquire both during character advancement.
You pretty much have to take the Divine or Arcane Archetype to get them both during the same step of character creation . . ..
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Jeff Huston
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mininin
Joined: 04 Dec 2011
Posts: 84
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:05 am Post subject: |
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| Which makes sense story wise as you have devoted more of your life to the study of magic and therefore start with more spells than if you pick it up rapidly once you have begun adventuring. |
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Andril
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Posts: 187
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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| One way would be to open spellcasting via background or path and then take the spellcasting talent and prestidigitation at the same time, e.g., when you take the advancement option taken any two talents. |
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Deviknyte
Joined: 17 Jun 2009
Posts: 1351
Location: Allen Park, MI
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:01 pm Post subject: Re: Universal tradition choices |
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| hustonj wrote: | Almost correct. You only get all the Universal Spells if you take Prestidigitation and a "full" spell casting Talent in the same step of character creation or character advancement.
There are currently no valid ways to acquire both during character advancement.
You pretty much have to take the Divine or Arcane Archetype to get them both during the same step of character creation . . .. |
You can take Initiate of a God or Templar as your background, and then during your talent step, take both Prestidigitation and Divine Spell Casting or Sorcerer Priest. Correct?
| Andril wrote: | | One way would be to open spellcasting via background or path and then take the spellcasting talent and prestidigitation at the same time, e.g., when you take the advancement option taken any two talents. |
Path's another option. My character took both Initiate of Belisarda and Initiate Itinerant before spell casting and Prestidigitation.
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"The Elorii shall rise again!"
Current- Vaerdos kyr'Taliis, Ardakene Elorii Chanter of the Rebirth and the Bright People
Retired- Elysian, Ardakene Elorii Hierophant of Belisarda |
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hustonj
Joined: 30 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Andril wrote: | | One way would be to open spellcasting via background or path and then take the spellcasting talent and prestidigitation at the same time, e.g., when you take the advancement option taken any two talents. |
NOT LEGAL.
That advancement option requires that you meet all requirements for both Talents before selecting it. Already knowing Prestidigitation is a requirement for both Divine Spell Casting and Arcane Spell Casting. Thus, you can NOT select the two at the same advancement step using "Take any 2 Talents".
As for the whole 2 Talents during the final Talents section of Character Creation . . . I SAID "pretty much" have to take the archetypes, admitting that another option should exist, right?
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Deviknyte
Joined: 17 Jun 2009
Posts: 1351
Location: Allen Park, MI
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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| hustonj wrote: | NOT LEGAL.
That advancement option requires that you meet all requirements for both Talents before selecting it. Already knowing Prestidigitation is a requirement for both Divine Spell Casting and Arcane Spell Casting. Thus, you can NOT select the two at the same advancement step using "Take any 2 Talents".
As for the whole 2 Talents during the final Talents section of Character Creation . . . I SAID "pretty much" have to take the archetypes, admitting that another option should exist, right? |
Are you saying I couldn't take Waylay and Murderous Precision or Honey Tongued and Seductive in the same step? I don't think that's intent, although I'm not positive. You take one talent and then the other. And I'm pretty sure I read Pedro or Eric say that this is a viable option.
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-Devin Redd, Detroit Harvester
"The Elorii shall rise again!"
Current- Vaerdos kyr'Taliis, Ardakene Elorii Chanter of the Rebirth and the Bright People
Retired- Elysian, Ardakene Elorii Hierophant of Belisarda |
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Archangel
Joined: 15 Aug 2011
Posts: 386
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| Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 7:37 am Post subject: |
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| Deviknyte wrote: | | hustonj wrote: | NOT LEGAL.
That advancement option requires that you meet all requirements for both Talents before selecting it. Already knowing Prestidigitation is a requirement for both Divine Spell Casting and Arcane Spell Casting. Thus, you can NOT select the two at the same advancement step using "Take any 2 Talents".
As for the whole 2 Talents during the final Talents section of Character Creation . . . I SAID "pretty much" have to take the archetypes, admitting that another option should exist, right? |
Are you saying I couldn't take Waylay and Murderous Precision or Honey Tongued and Seductive in the same step? I don't think that's intent, although I'm not positive. You take one talent and then the other. And I'm pretty sure I read Pedro or Eric say that this is a viable option. |
The text in the book is explicit in this matter, though I can see them allowing you such an exception that the first talent can be the required for the second.
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Brian Trahan |
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Andril
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Posts: 187
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| Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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Could you take both at step 9 during character creation?
Or do you need to take it at step 1 and e.g., 9, and thus don't get access to all universal spells? Or would you?
Just figuring out, if an expert has any chance to start with all universal spells, or not. |
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Archangel
Joined: 15 Aug 2011
Posts: 386
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| Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Andril wrote: | Could you take both at step 9 during character creation?
Or do you need to take it at step 1 and e.g., 9, and thus don't get access to all universal spells? Or would you?
Just figuring out, if an expert has any chance to start with all universal spells, or not. |
Yes that was what huston and Deviknyte were saying is the only legal way for a non-arcane/divine archetype to get them at the same time.
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Brian Trahan |
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Deviknyte
Joined: 17 Jun 2009
Posts: 1351
Location: Allen Park, MI
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| Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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| archangel.arcanis wrote: | | Yes that was what huston and Deviknyte were saying is the only legal way for a non-arcane/divine archetype to get them at the same time. |
I'm under the belief that you need only take both talents in the same creation step or rank advancement.
hustonj is under the impression that you cannot. His idea is that during any creation step or rank advancement, all talents and skill ranks acquired are obtained at the exact same time, and thus one of them cannot be a prerequisite for another.
I have no idea on this issue. I don't recall reading it anywhere. I do recall Pedro or Eric saying that the Step 9 thing was a viable option (I could be crazy). And being able to do it through step 9 seems like the intent for me. I'll hit the google search on the forums I guess.
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-Devin Redd, Detroit Harvester
"The Elorii shall rise again!"
Current- Vaerdos kyr'Taliis, Ardakene Elorii Chanter of the Rebirth and the Bright People
Retired- Elysian, Ardakene Elorii Hierophant of Belisarda |
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southernskies
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 189
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| Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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Note that the rules for character creation and the rules for advancing your character are slightly different.
During character creation, you can take any talents at Step 9 in any order that meets pre-reqs.
During character *advancement* it says that for the "take any two talents" option, you must already meet the pre-requisites for both before advancing, so you couldn't take Prestidigitation and Spellcasting at the same step using this method.
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