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Combining stances with The Rage within
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Deviknyte



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hustonj wrote:
Yes, yes it was. Trust me, this was discussed during editing.
Just when I thought TWF was going to be viable.
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Harliquinn



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hustonj wrote:
Deviknyte wrote:
I had a question about fighting styles while we are at it. They count as stances and thus the many two-weapon styles can't be used with balanced blades. Was this the intent?


Yes, yes it was. Trust me, this was discussed during editing.


Is two-weapon fighting considered that dangerous compared with other choices like sweeping strikes and such?

John
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southernskies



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you want more inspiration see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longsword#Harnischfechten

Cool
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hustonj



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deviknyte wrote:
hustonj wrote:
Yes, yes it was. Trust me, this was discussed during editing.
Just when I thought TWF was going to be viable.


Yes, because a Huge Ss'ressen wielding Bearded Axes in each hand using Spinning Strikes and Mighty Swing to (potentially) deal 2D10+5 and then 2D10+4 in only 2 Ticks (and then waiting for an additional 6 ticks before getting to act again) needs help to be more effective.

The Ss'ressen described above is a Tier II character, of course.
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Harliquinn



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hustonj wrote:
Deviknyte wrote:
hustonj wrote:
Yes, yes it was. Trust me, this was discussed during editing.
Just when I thought TWF was going to be viable.


Yes, because a Huge Ss'ressen wielding Bearded Axes in each hand using Spinning Strikes and Mighty Swing to (potentially) deal 2D10+5 and then 2D10+9 in only 2 Ticks (and then waiting for an additional 6 ticks before getting to act again) needs help to be more effective.

The Ss'ressen described above is a Tier II character, of course.


One should not balance an entire combat fighting style around an outside, fringe case. Though how is this worse than combining something like mighty swing with sweeping strike?

John

John
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Deviknyte



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hustonj wrote:
Yes, because a Huge Ss'ressen wielding Bearded Axes in each hand using Spinning Strikes and Mighty Swing to (potentially) deal 2D10+5 and then 2D10+4 in only 2 Ticks (and then waiting for an additional 6 ticks before getting to act again) needs help to be more effective.

The Ss'ressen described above is a Tier II character, of course.
Aside from what John said, Huge says you can't dual wield while wielding a 2handed weapon in one hand. Dueling wielding speed 7 weapons would have definitely been more than viable. One would have saved 5 ticks with that!

And it's just my opinion though. Balanced Blades does makes TWF better, but any of the TWF styles added to it would have made it good.

I was really excited to see the Rage Within though, raging is not only viable now, but awesome.
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hustonj



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMO, the problem is NOT whether or not TWF is VIABLE, it is whether or not it is DOMINANT.

I believe TWF IS viable. I believe this enough that the build of my primary character has been set for TWF work, with lighter, faster weapons, even, where the advantages are minimized.

The complaint I responded to was a blatant declaration that TWF within the system is not VIABLE. I choose not to directly contradict that statement of opinion with my response, but now you're demanded that I do no less.

As with every other combat option in the system, there are times and places where TWF provides more advantages than others. As a rule, the people expecting TWF to provide more than it does are the ones already using very fast weapons. The biggest advantage of TWF is the reduction in the delay between attacks, nothing more and nothing less.

TWF is superior to Sweeping Strike in that TWF allows you the OPTION of using both attacks against the same target or against two different targets. If you are sweeping minions, that distinction isn't really important. Once your opposition upgrades, though . . ..

TRAINED TWF is also superior in that it doesn't impose recovery, so you can repeat it over and over again.

The heart of the complaint that I responded to was whether or not TWF as mechanically presented in the system meets the expectations and desires of a specific player, and whether or not the munchkin aspect of that player finds the mechanics in use to be more cost effective than other options. Munchkin number crunching is based on the corner cases which can be exploited.

I spend time doing it, too. MOST of the time, I then turn back to my grossly sub-optimal story-based build, whether I'm talking about Arcanis, Pathfinder, Legend of the Five Rings, Star Wars, or any of the other RPGs I've enjoyed through the years.

The Codex of Heroes has me reconsidering my TWF build, too. Not because I think it is sub-optimal, but because I think the Red Sword Fencing School is a better story match. Shot-term, I think the Fighting Style will reduce the character's combat effectiveness. Long-term, I think it will probably be a wash. It will change the character's strengths on the field. In order to best use his own capabilities, he will have to do different things. Not inherently better. Not inherently worse. Just different.
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hustonj



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deviknyte wrote:
hustonj wrote:
Yes, because a Huge Ss'ressen wielding Bearded Axes in each hand using Spinning Strikes and Mighty Swing to (potentially) deal 2D10+5 and then 2D10+4 in only 2 Ticks (and then waiting for an additional 6 ticks before getting to act again) needs help to be more effective.

The Ss'ressen described above is a Tier II character, of course.
Aside from what John said, Huge says you can't dual wield while wielding a 2handed weapon in one hand. Dueling wielding speed 7 weapons would have definitely been more than viable. One would have saved 5 ticks with that!


Response Edited:

There was a SIGNIFICANT change in Huge since the last time I saw it in editing.

That change was that it previously allowed 6 pound weapons (such as Bearded Axes) to be Light Weapons. Now it cuts off at 5 pounds.

I want to publicly state that I am happy with the change, I just hadn't noticed it . . ..
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Last edited by hustonj on Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:33 am; edited 2 times in total
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Harliquinn



Joined: 09 Aug 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hustonj wrote:

It also explicitly says that any weapon weighing 6 pounds or less is considered a Light Weapon.


Actually a weapon needs to weight 3 pounds to be light unless they changed this in an eratta. If it has, I missed it.

John
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hustonj



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harliquinn wrote:
hustonj wrote:

It also explicitly says that any weapon weighing 6 pounds or less is considered a Light Weapon.


Actually a weapon needs to weight 3 pounds to be light unless they changed this in an eratta. If it has, I missed it.

John


Huge changes that for the character with said Talent.
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Harliquinn



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fair enough.
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Deviknyte



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hustonj wrote:
I want to publicly state that I am happy with the change, I just hadn't noticed it . . ..
I already had a friend call me talking about his speed gain from duel wielding Trailain Hammers and I had to break his heart.
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Deviknyte



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lack of non-human/val originated fighting style hurt a little.

Edit: Arcimous Primus, NM.
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Milandir
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deviknyte wrote:
Lack of non-human/val originated fighting style hurt a little.

Edit: Arcimous Primus, NM.


There is only so much that we can get to, but we do intend to visit all of the val families and we want a fighting style for every last one.
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Harliquinn



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Milandir wrote:
Deviknyte wrote:
Lack of non-human/val originated fighting style hurt a little.

Edit: Arcimous Primus, NM.


There is only so much that we can get to, but we do intend to visit all of the val families and we want a fighting style for every last one.


I could be wrong but I think he was looking for fighting styles that didn't have a human/Val origin.

John
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