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Deviknyte
Joined: 17 Jun 2009
Posts: 1385
Location: Allen Park, MI
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 Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:51 pm Post subject: Tail Questions |
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I have some questions about Ss'ressen Tails.
1) Path of the Scales Tier III grants you an additional MI die to your Tail Swipe damage. Since Tail Swipe is essentially Trip Foe, and Trip Foe deals no damage, do I deal a None(MI) now when I Tail Swipe (Trip Foe with my tail)?
2) With a Tail Bracer on, can I use a different part of my tail and use it as unarmed instead of the Tail Bracer? Thus I can switch to Pugilist or Tail Swipe?
3) Can I get a spiked Tail Bracer?
4) Does Weapon Training Unarmed cover my tail, claws, bite, & punches?
5) Is it intended for one to use Tail Swipe with a Tail Bracer? Or would he/she have to pick up normal Trip Foe separately.
_________________
-Devin Redd, Detroit Harvester
"The Elorii shall rise again!"
Current- Vaerdos kyr'Taliis, Ardakene Elorii Chanter of the Rebirth and the Bright People
Retired- Elysian, Ardakene Elorii Hierophant of Belisarda
Last edited by Deviknyte on Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:44 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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hustonj
Joined: 30 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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1) I think terminology may have interfered with communication of intent in this case.
I BELIEVE the intent is to grant a bonus MI die to Unarmed attack damage when specifically using the tail to make the attack, not to add damage dice to a Trip attempt. I could easily be wrong, of course.
2) This question translates in my head to being the equivalent of "If I'm wearing Gauntlets, can I strike with my elbows instead, allowing me to switch between weapons freely?"
My instinct is to say that such an option violates the game balance intent of taking the time to select, ready, and then use a specific weapon.
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Valeriano Innocenzo Camillo de Larissa la Galletti
San Antonio, Tx-based Harvester
Jeff Huston
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Deviknyte
Joined: 17 Jun 2009
Posts: 1385
Location: Allen Park, MI
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| hustonj wrote: | 1) I think terminology may have interfered with communication of intent in this case.
I BELIEVE the intent is to grant a bonus MI die to Unarmed attack damage when specifically using the tail to make the attack, not to add damage dice to a Trip attempt. I could easily be wrong, of course. |
Dealing double might damage on every tail attack seemed too powerful. Also, Tail Swipe the talent has nothing to do with my standard tail attack.
_________________
-Devin Redd, Detroit Harvester
"The Elorii shall rise again!"
Current- Vaerdos kyr'Taliis, Ardakene Elorii Chanter of the Rebirth and the Bright People
Retired- Elysian, Ardakene Elorii Hierophant of Belisarda |
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hustonj
Joined: 30 Jun 2010
Posts: 1080
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Deviknyte wrote: | | hustonj wrote: | 1) I think terminology may have interfered with communication of intent in this case.
I BELIEVE the intent is to grant a bonus MI die to Unarmed attack damage when specifically using the tail to make the attack, not to add damage dice to a Trip attempt. I could easily be wrong, of course. |
Dealing double might damage on every tail attack seemed too powerful. Also, Tail Swipe the talent has nothing to do with my standard tail attack. |
Other Talents (mostly through Learn Martial Technique, IIRC) provide a second Attribute die to a specific attack's damage.
I also refer you back to the first part of my response, which you quoted: I think terminology may have interfered with communication of intent in this case. Responding by saying that "the terminology requires that it means" is SPECIFICALLY ignoring that comment.
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Valeriano Innocenzo Camillo de Larissa la Galletti
San Antonio, Tx-based Harvester
Jeff Huston
huston.harvester@cox.net |
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Deviknyte
Joined: 17 Jun 2009
Posts: 1385
Location: Allen Park, MI
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| hustonj wrote: | | Other Talents (mostly through Learn Martial Technique, IIRC) provide a second Attribute die to a specific attack's damage. |
Martial Techniques come with a Speed/Recovery cost though. A talent that said, "add an additional might die to every broad sword attack," is a bit much correct?
| hustonj wrote: | | I also refer you back to the first part of my response, which you quoted: I think terminology may have interfered with communication of intent in this case. Responding by saying that "the terminology requires that it means" is SPECIFICALLY ignoring that comment. |
I wasn't trying to dismiss your point. As written it only applies to a Trip Foe with the tail. If it is intended to be every attack it needs a clarification. It's in one of my current player's builds and the damage is outrageous, as he read it's intent as every speed 3 unarmed tail attack, especially when added to maneuvers that add additional ability score damage.
_________________
-Devin Redd, Detroit Harvester
"The Elorii shall rise again!"
Current- Vaerdos kyr'Taliis, Ardakene Elorii Chanter of the Rebirth and the Bright People
Retired- Elysian, Ardakene Elorii Hierophant of Belisarda
Last edited by Deviknyte on Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:50 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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hustonj
Joined: 30 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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4) Weapon Training (Unarmed) covers all natural weaponry. This includes the claws of a ss'ressen or dark-kin as well as those created by a spell. This also includes the horns of a dark-kin or the bite of a ss'ressen with the appropriate Racial Talent.
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Valeriano Innocenzo Camillo de Larissa la Galletti
San Antonio, Tx-based Harvester
Jeff Huston
huston.harvester@cox.net |
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hustonj
Joined: 30 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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3) Not at this time. The only Tail Bracer provided through the current rules provides Blunt damage. There are no alternatives currently available.
It is worth note that the flavor text for the Tail Bracer declares that it is adorned with "a row of razor-sharp spines". You could easily make a case for it NOT being a Blunt weapon.
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Valeriano Innocenzo Camillo de Larissa la Galletti
San Antonio, Tx-based Harvester
Jeff Huston
huston.harvester@cox.net
Last edited by hustonj on Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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hustonj
Joined: 30 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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5) The Tail Bracer didn't exist within the rules when Tail Swipe was written, so I doubt we can say that it was intended to be used with that weapon.
Interesting question, though.
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Valeriano Innocenzo Camillo de Larissa la Galletti
San Antonio, Tx-based Harvester
Jeff Huston
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Harliquinn
Joined: 09 Aug 2010
Posts: 1540
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:56 pm Post subject: Re: Tail Questions |
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| Deviknyte wrote: | 3) Can I get a spiked Tail Bracer?
4) Does Weapon Training Unarmed cover my tail, claws, bite, & punches? |
3) Owning to Pedro's recent "Flavor is important", I believe Tail Bracers are already 'spiked' as it is described as "Consisting of a leather sleeve with a row of razor-sharp spines running down its length." They do a d6, so that's pretty potent already.
4) Based on how Weapon Training is written, Punches would be "Unarmed" and separate from any other natural weapon that had its own Weapon Tricks. I could only find Tail Bracer as a different weapon for the Tail. Given it's trait of "Worn" it would use Melee (Unarmed) skill, but require it's own Weapon Training to access its Tricks.
Given how the "Tooth and Claw" Fighting Style is written, with a pre-requisite of "Weapon Mastery (Unarmed)" I would say Claws fall under Unarmed as well. I didn't find any actual "Bite" Weapon Tricks anywhere. However, the Wooden Asp spell summons a Large Asp with Weapon Mastery (Bite), so it would seem Bite would require a separate Weapon Training Talent to access any Tricks for it as well.
John
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Ohio Harvester
Kelb'Bakari, Dark-kin Altherian Corsair, Gentleman Archaeologist
-"Judge a wine by its label and you will miss out on the best vintages." |
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Harliquinn
Joined: 09 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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| hustonj wrote: | | 4) Weapon Training (Unarmed) covers all natural weaponry. This includes the claws of a ss'ressen or dark-kin as well as those created by a spell. This also includes the horns of a dark-kin or the bite of a ss'ressen with the appropriate Racial Talent. |
While Melee (Unarmed) covers all these for attacking, if Horns, Claws, and Bites all had Weapon Tricks associated with them, they would require separate Weapon Training Talents to access. This would follow the normal rules of each weapon having its own Weapon Training, even if related by type.
John
_________________
- Harliquinn, John Bellando
Ohio Harvester
Kelb'Bakari, Dark-kin Altherian Corsair, Gentleman Archaeologist
-"Judge a wine by its label and you will miss out on the best vintages." |
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Deviknyte
Joined: 17 Jun 2009
Posts: 1385
Location: Allen Park, MI
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:02 pm Post subject: Re: Tail Questions |
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| Harliquinn wrote: | | 3) Owning to Pedro's recent "Flavor is important", I believe Tail Bracers are already 'spiked' as it is described as "Consisting of a leather sleeve with a row of razor-sharp spines running down its length." They do a d6, so that's pretty potent already. |
I wasn't looking for more damage. Speed 4 for d6 is standard. I was looking for a piercing option.
| Harliquinn wrote: | 4) Based on how Weapon Training is written, Punches would be "Unarmed" and separate from any other natural weapon that had its own Weapon Tricks. I could only find Tail Bracer as a different weapon for the Tail. Given it's trait of "Worn" it would use Melee (Unarmed) skill, but require it's own Weapon Training to access its Tricks.
Given how the "Tooth and Claw" Fighting Style is written, with a pre-requisite of "Weapon Mastery (Unarmed)" I would say Claws fall under Unarmed as well. I didn't find any actual "Bite" Weapon Tricks anywhere. However, the Wooden Asp spell summons a Large Asp with Weapon Mastery (Bite), so it would seem Bite would require a separate Weapon Training Talent to access any Tricks for it as well.
John |
I think Jeff is correct on this one.
_________________
-Devin Redd, Detroit Harvester
"The Elorii shall rise again!"
Current- Vaerdos kyr'Taliis, Ardakene Elorii Chanter of the Rebirth and the Bright People
Retired- Elysian, Ardakene Elorii Hierophant of Belisarda |
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StatMonkey
Moderator
Joined: 31 May 2007
Posts: 1318
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:13 pm Post subject: Re: Tail Questions |
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Brain about to explode...
| Deviknyte wrote: | | I have some questions about Ss'ressen Tails. |
Fire away
| Quote: | | 1) Path of the Scales Tier III grants you an additional MI die to your Tail Swipe damage. Since Tail Swipe is essentially Trip Foe, and Trip Foe deals no damage, do I deal a None(MI) now when I Tail Swipe (Trip Foe with my tail)? |
Correct you would gain (Mi) damage when using a normal tail swipe w/o a tail bracer.
| Quote: | | 2) With a Tail Bracer on, can I use a different part of my tail and use it as unarmed instead of the Tail Bracer? Thus I can switch to Pugilist or Tail Swipe? |
The tail bracer is a "unarmed weapon" much like the Cestus and the Gauntlet... so you can switch between a claw (or punch) and a tail attack at any time.. you just trade some extra damage for +1 speed.
| Quote: | | 3) Can I get a spiked Tail Bracer? |
Should not be a problem but in the living campaign you have to go "by the book" I may have to add some "weapon and armor modifications" to forged in magic II if I have time to write them all up. 
| Quote: | | 4) Does Weapon Training Unarmed cover my tail, claws, bite, & punches? |
Yes...
| Quote: | | 5) Is it intended for one to use Tail Swipe with a Tail Bracer? Or would he/she have to pick up normal Trip Foe separately. |
The tail bracer is fully intended to work with the Tail Swipe talent. Enjoy your tail swipeness.
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Pedro C Barrenechea
Paradigm Concepts, Miami
And all you need to know about Arcanis
New player: "You know, I'm not really sure we *should* win. I'm not sure we made the right choice."
Veteran player: "Welcome to Arcanis!" |
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Harliquinn
Joined: 09 Aug 2010
Posts: 1540
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:14 pm Post subject: Re: Tail Questions |
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| Deviknyte wrote: | | Harliquinn wrote: | | 3) Owning to Pedro's recent "Flavor is important", I believe Tail Bracers are already 'spiked' as it is described as "Consisting of a leather sleeve with a row of razor-sharp spines running down its length." They do a d6, so that's pretty potent already. |
I wasn't looking for more damage. Speed 4 for d6 is standard. I was looking for a piercing option. |
Oh, yeah a Versatile (Piercing) Weapon Trait might have been cool for it.
| Deviknyte wrote: |
| Harliquinn wrote: | 4) Based on how Weapon Training is written, Punches would be "Unarmed" and separate from any other natural weapon that had its own Weapon Tricks. I could only find Tail Bracer as a different weapon for the Tail. Given it's trait of "Worn" it would use Melee (Unarmed) skill, but require it's own Weapon Training to access its Tricks.
Given how the "Tooth and Claw" Fighting Style is written, with a pre-requisite of "Weapon Mastery (Unarmed)" I would say Claws fall under Unarmed as well. I didn't find any actual "Bite" Weapon Tricks anywhere. However, the Wooden Asp spell summons a Large Asp with Weapon Mastery (Bite), so it would seem Bite would require a separate Weapon Training Talent to access any Tricks for it as well.
John |
I think Jeff is correct on this one. |
The Weapon Training Talent specifically says "Choose a weapon, Unarmed, or natural weapons." Unless there has been a change, natural weapons are considered different from Unarmed in terms of Weapon Training. There are a few examples of this in the book as well (see the Asp example). You can't learn Weapon Tricks for 2 weapons with one Weapon Training talent for any other weapon; I don't think Unarmed was intended to be the exception.
John
_________________
- Harliquinn, John Bellando
Ohio Harvester
Kelb'Bakari, Dark-kin Altherian Corsair, Gentleman Archaeologist
-"Judge a wine by its label and you will miss out on the best vintages." |
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StatMonkey
Moderator
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:15 pm Post subject: Re: Tail Questions |
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| Harliquinn wrote: |
Given how the "Tooth and Claw" Fighting Style is written, with a pre-requisite of "Weapon Mastery (Unarmed)" I would say Claws fall under Unarmed as well. I didn't find any actual "Bite" Weapon Tricks anywhere. However, the Wooden Asp spell summons a Large Asp with Weapon Mastery (Bite), so it would seem Bite would require a separate Weapon Training Talent to access any Tricks for it as well.
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Bite weapon tricks are something I have in mind for a future book.. and I wanted the asp to gain access to them when I get around to writing them up.
_________________
Pedro C Barrenechea
Paradigm Concepts, Miami
And all you need to know about Arcanis
New player: "You know, I'm not really sure we *should* win. I'm not sure we made the right choice."
Veteran player: "Welcome to Arcanis!" |
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Harliquinn
Joined: 09 Aug 2010
Posts: 1540
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:16 pm Post subject: Re: Tail Questions |
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| StatMonkey wrote: | | Quote: | | 4) Does Weapon Training Unarmed cover my tail, claws, bite, & punches? |
Yes...
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Just to clarify, so with a single Weapon Training (Unarmed), a character can access weapon tricks for Punches, Claws, Tails, Bites, etc.?
John
_________________
- Harliquinn, John Bellando
Ohio Harvester
Kelb'Bakari, Dark-kin Altherian Corsair, Gentleman Archaeologist
-"Judge a wine by its label and you will miss out on the best vintages." |
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