Paradigm Concepts

[Nierite]

I have recently posted thoughts in relation to the breeding of Val's in terms of Recessive Genes and such, and Mr. Lopez just revealed some interesting stuff about the Kio, so I thought I would repost them in their own thread rather than having to sift through 20-odd pages of the "Clarifications Thread". Feel free to add anything here that you think of (or if you have power within PCI, tell us/me I am completely wrong )

NOTE FOR CLARIFICATION!!

The posts here represent my using my own personal skill-set/interests to work stuff out and unless given a shiny gold star by the writers is considered completely non-Canon.
_________________
Cody Bergman

aka = Haakon Marcus val'Virdan, Priest of Nier (Divine 1.
aka = Dyabe val'Abebi, Templar of Althares (Divine 1.4)
aka = Jorma Ostoman, Battlemage of the Coryani Empire (Arcane 1.2)

[Nierite]

Using the Assumption that Val's no longer breed true, that would imply that whatever genetic factor influcences Valhood, it would be a Recessive Trait. With current knowledge of genetics there should be no way that two Val's would produce a Human child, but there is a very good chance that a Human and a Val would produce a Human child instead of a Val.

Let's call the Val gene V, with V = Dominent (therefore, no Val) while v = Recessive (Therefore, Val). In genetics, if you EVER have a dominent gene, you will express the dominent phenotype. When a baby is conceived, they are given half their genes from their Mother, and half from their Father. This means that every gene (in theory, but not reality) has two copies in each of us (one from each Parent).

Now, lets say Gregor val'Virdan has a child with Alconia Gracchi. Being a Val, Gregor is considered (v,v) meaning he has two copies of the Recessive Val gene. Alconia Gracchi, let us say, is a pure blood human, and therefore is considered (V,V) with two copies of the Dominant, Non-Val genes. If they have a child, it is IMPOSSIBLE that their child will be a Val, as all children of the union will get a (v) from Gregor, and a (V) from Alconia. As such, all their children would be considered (V,v).

Now, let's say that one of their children, let's say named Fiona Virdan-Gracchi, who has this genotype (V,v) has a child with another Val (v,v). In this union, there is a 50% chance that the child produced would be a Val (v,v) and 50% chance that they would be a carrier of the Val gene like their Mother (V,v).

Now, using this assumption, it is entirely possible that a Val would be born from two humans if they both had the Genotype (V,v) with an average chance of 25% (with 50% being a carrier and 25% being pure human). So, in this case Alconia Virdan-Gracchi and Gaius Pullo (who is descended from a Val ancestor) could produce a Val offspring.

Now, this gets really complicated when you throw in that each bloodline has its own traits and powers. This means that every val bloodline would have its own recessive trait which is always trumped by the Human (V) allele (allele being the term used for a particular form of a gene, with [v] being another allele). At this point, I wonder how it would rank for dominence. For example, from a genetic perspective if a val'Sheem and a val'Assanté had a child (v,v), which bloodline should they get? Is it random which one would take dominence? For example of this, women have two X chromosomes (vs men who have a Y and and X), but in any given cell, only one X chromosome is considered active while the other is deactivated in a process called Lyonization. Assuming this is true, then it is random which of the Val lines would take dominence, but the resulting child would contain both bloodlines. In this way, it is possible for a val'Assanté to produce a val'Sheem offspring without any further 'aid' from a val'Sheem!

Now, we assume that the val family traits (ie: Virdan with Red hair, Assanté with olive skin, etc) carry forward to every Val of that Bloodline. This means that the Val gene is linked to other genes (ie: same chromosome) as the physical traits that identify it. As such, the Gray Val eyes are linked to the same chromosome or gene locus as the Val gene itself (makes sense), and so does things like hair colour and complexion. This complicates things much further, and starts going outside of my own personal realm of education (Biochemist, not a geneticist ).

So, the Coles Notes version of this is:

Val:Val (both being v,v or homozygous recessive) pairing always breeds true.

Val:Pure Human (V,V, or homozygous dominent) always breed a human.

Val:Carrier Human (V,v, or heterozygous) will have a 50% chance of breeding a Val.

Carrer Human:Pure Human will always breed a human, but some will be carriers.

Carrier Human:Carrier Human will have a 25% chance of breeding a Val, 25% chance of a Pure Human, and a 50% chance of another Carrier.

Yay Science being applied to Fantasy Games!
_________________
Cody Bergman

aka = Haakon Marcus val'Virdan, Priest of Nier (Divine 1.
aka = Dyabe val'Abebi, Templar of Althares (Divine 1.4)
aka = Jorma Ostoman, Battlemage of the Coryani Empire (Arcane 1.2)

[PCIHenry]

Cody,

I know you and some of the others love to do this kind of stuff, but its been decades since my genetics class, so do NOT assume that because we have not commented on this or the other sub-thread on genetics, means that it is correct.

It just means that I don't want to revisit my science days at the University.

Best,
_________________
Henry Lopez
President
Paradigm Concepts, Inc.

[Nierite]

[Nierite]

There have been some recent talk on the Yahoo Groups in relation to Kio and val'Sungha.

The Coles Notes Version of this:

Human + True Kio = Kio (Human/Kio Hyrbid)

Human + Kio = Human (going by the old game and thought that Kio genes would become more dilute with each generation)

Kio + Val (any family) = val'Sungha (these are the result of mixing the divine heritage of the Valinor with the unique heritage of the True Kio)

val'Sungha + Val (any other family) = val'Sungha

val'Sungha + Human = val'Sungha or Kio

val'Sungha + Kio = val'Sungha or Kio (presumably)
_________________
Cody Bergman

aka = Haakon Marcus val'Virdan, Priest of Nier (Divine 1.
aka = Dyabe val'Abebi, Templar of Althares (Divine 1.4)
aka = Jorma Ostoman, Battlemage of the Coryani Empire (Arcane 1.2)

[Chris24601]

While this is very interesting, I think your analysis is ignoring a couple non-trivial issues...

Pithy-version: Val is an STD.

Short-version: Val heritability is better understood with a pathological rather than a genetics model.

Long-version: First, you're operating under the presumption that there is a single Val gene that determines whether one is or isn't a Val, but even for something as simple as human eye color there are multiple dominant/recessive pairs involved in that determination.

Presuming the trait is genetic at all (more on that below) the odds are that are at least a dozen or more (and probably closer to thousands) of genes involved in determining whether an individual is a Val. Realistically there would need to be enough genes to sort out the dozen or more potential bloodlines and, even more, which will be the dominant set when two Val of different bloodlines have children.

Your second faulty presumption is that there's a human genetic code involved at all in the process. I say this because, for traditional genetics to be involved then ALL humans would have had to have been encoded by the gods at their creation with the proper genes so that they could potentially breed true with their Valinor and the Vals (and they would have also had to have been encoded by the gods with the genes that would allow them to bear offspring with infernals while they were at it... an unlikely proposition at best).

No, I think if you want a real look at how the whole Val/Dark-kin thing works I think you should scrap your genetics model and start looking at pathology.

Thinking of matters in terms of a disease (albeit a mostly beneficial one in the case of being a Val) helps explain how the first twenty generations always bred true (it was an extremely potent "infection") but then ceased to always breed true (the "viral" agent either weakened or humanity developed a resistance) to the point that even two Vals might occassionally give birth to a normal human (the infection was just too weak to be passed on).

Such a line of thinking would also explain why the relative potence of the blood (as measured by bloodrank) plays a role in which of two competing strains of "virus" is dominant in any child resulting from the union of two Vals of differing bloodlines.

A pathological model also explains things like the val'Sosi who appeared without any genetic co-mingling what-so-ever amongst several genetically incompatible species.

In summary: The genetics model of understanding how the transmission of Val traits fails to account for several things that are known to be true about the nature of Vals and their offspring. By constrast, a pathological model (the Val "infection" is passed to one's offspring possibly using the normal human genetic material as a carrier for the "virus") explains all of the elements involved in who is and isn't a Val.
_________________
Christopher D. Johnson
Emrys val'Holryn-Steele - Master of Disguise.

[Nierite]

I agree that the genetics model fails to explain everything, but I do personally disagree (at least in part) with your 'pathalogical model'. For one, pathology requires the use of a pathalogical agent outside of the body (ie: a Virus) which is used to pass along the disease to a host. This even at least partially explains why in fluff 2 Vals can breed a 'normal' human using the assumption that that person was somehow immune or otherwise resistant to the 'Val Virus'.

Unfortunately, we KNOW that Val-hood is a heritable trait, not a infected trait, and that there are many heritable traits associated with each bloodline. val'Ishi eyes, val'Virdan hair, val'Assante' complextion, all of these are tied to the families. You could argue that these are simply because they're 'part of the family', but many of these traits themselves (ie: Red hair) are recessive traits and would eventually be diluted out. The Vals travel far and wide, so by now all Val's would have brown hair and brown eyes. Even the eye colour would preclude a virus, as virus' HAVE TO BE SIMPLE in order to survive. The most complicated virus' have genomes starting to approach small cells, but by your own argument the genetics required to encode even eye colour is quite far beyond the scope of a virus, let alone everything else. Add in the genes required for not only 'awesome powers of the gods' and an ability to replicate in host cells, and you've gotten too insane for a simple virus. Also, virus' that big are often EXTREMELY fragile, only passing by direct fluid transfer.

Other flaws in the theory come in when you think about how far the Vals have spread. You are correct in thinking that this Val Virus could have spread far very quickly as humanity had not yet aquired immunity to it, but then that begs the question of how Vals can exist at all now. If there was still a virus, then it would still be spreading, and if it can only be spread by fluid transfer (ie: sex), then every person who has sex with a Val should at least have the chance of becoming infected themselves. Heck, speaking of children, if the Val gene was still infectious all children SHOULD be born with it (having been infected in utero). You could (very convincingly) argue that the child may inherit the genetic traits from their non-Val parent to be 'immune' to Valhood, but that still brings up a number of questions about the spread of the race.

1) If a disease, and 'normal humans' are immune, then there should be few, if any Val children born, and then almost exclusively to other Val's.

2) If not all of humanity is immune, and can therefore not pass on their immunity (which is genetic in its basis) to their children, then that means that any human who is not immune should be able to be infected, and therefore become a Val themselves.

3) You could argue that the child, while in utero, has an undeveloped immune system (correct!) and that therefore while there they can be infected while their parent (fully developed immune system) does not. The problem then lies in how the child would be infected in the first place? If the mother was a Val, that works, but the Father? If the human mother was immune, there would be no resevoir for the Val virus in the mother, and it would not be able to spread to the child as it needs to enter a cell before it 'dies' in the mother. Also, while developing and up to a year afterwards, a child gets most of its immunity from its mother's body and immune system instead of its own, further precluding spread of the disease.

Is it impossible for an infection to bypass every defence? No. Hell, look at Type I Diabetes which is caused by an autoimmune reaction to a virus which got past the mother's defences while the child was developing, causing the child's own immune system to see it's insulin producing cells as foreign, and therefore an infection.

I think something akin to a 'fusion' of the two theories is needed. I agree that your virus model works quite well to explain the original 'spread' of the Val race. Originally the divine heritage spread from person to person before it eventually ran its course. How it 'ran its course' is open to debate, but that would explain how the Serenity of Beltine was able to 'confer' Valhood to the Sosi (new Val family, new pathology). However, I think going by this, the original 'Val Virus'" have long since ceased to exist, and are now confirred to current Val's by way of genetic throwbacks to those original vals.

There are many examples of this in nature, but the most 'topical' example of a virus like this is HIV. HIV is what is known as a retrovirus, and therefore works by inserting itself into the genome of its host which allows it to bypass the bodies defences and lay dormant for years before becoming active. If the "Val Virus" is a type like this, the pathogen actually inserted the proper coding regions that confer Valhood to the host, which could then be passed on by inheritance once the 'disease' had finished spreading. The end could be chocked up to the Gods using some sort of divine 'engineered pathogen' which had a set halflife or then spread another disease which confirred immunity to the original pathogen. However, by that point, the genetic traits had spread sufficiently to ensure that the Val's would continue on.
_________________
Cody Bergman

aka = Haakon Marcus val'Virdan, Priest of Nier (Divine 1.
aka = Dyabe val'Abebi, Templar of Althares (Divine 1.4)
aka = Jorma Ostoman, Battlemage of the Coryani Empire (Arcane 1.2)

[Nierite]

Further thoughts re: Val genetics:

What we see with Val breeding actually makes more sense if Valhood was actually a DOMINANT gene/trait. For those people who would say that Dominant traits would always take hold (see 2nd post here), I should point out that there are many instances of Dominant traits that are reasonably rare in the population.

In real humans, cleft chins are a dominant trait, however these chins aren't on every human despite the fact it is domiant. That particular alelle is simply too rare to make it into a significant portion of the population naturally. As such, reasonably rare.

The same could hold true with Vals. When the original Val founders were imbued with there divine genes, they gained two Dominant copies of the Val Gene (V,V). This means that every child they have would be a Val of that bloodline, which also must have gotten similar 'dominating' modifications. As they have nobody but Humans to breed with, all children would then be (V,v) with v now being non-Val trait(s). This means that each susequent children would have a 50% chance of being Vals themselves with the other half being plain, vanilla humans. These were possibly the founders of the great vassal families of the Vals, with humans from such marriages going to them while vals were raised by the Val family, keeping the genes concentrated.

Because Vals aren't commoners (at least then), the Val genes wouldn't have the chance of entering the common genepool, keeping the populations of Humans free of their gene.Meanwhile, the Vals would slowly continue to spread. Eventually, like all royal families, efforts to keep the families 'pure' would lead to imbreeding, which eventually would create more (V,V) individuals, and these Pure bloods would have a higher bloodrank due to their undiluted heritage. However, they are still inbred, and get all the benefits of that .

Due to the stigma of marrying between families, most Vals in existance would be (V,v), with some being mixed between families (V,v) or (V,V) with mixed V's, while others would be inbred. If the (V,v)'s marry humans, half their kids would be human. If two (V,v)'s have kids, 25% of their kids would be humans. However, never would two normal Humans make a Val.

I personally think this explains most of my confusion in the game.

CONTINUATION (fingers got tired on blackberry):

A note about the family traits - It is possible that the physical traits of the different families became dominant (even ones like Red hair which in normal humans would not be dominant) when they were made into Val's. This could be with the inclusion of mutations in teh selection genes which are not really understood in our society. As such, val'Emmans would always get the dominant Val version of the genes which regulate their hair, eyes, and pale complextion. There will of course be variations with each individual as even recessive traits (which all human versions would be) would still be present, but they would still have these traits.

In the case of "Val Genes" for physical traits (but not the divine powers and such) passing on in Val/Human matings, it could be that these genes only become dominant in the case of the "Master Control Val Gene". In all life there are certain genes which code for regulator proteins which dictate which genes get activated at what times. Each gene, in turn, has regulatory sequences before the actual gene which dictates what regulatory proteins can activate that gene. Some, like the ones which produce essential body factors or cellular proteins, are very easy to turn on, while others are only turned on with certain stimuli. The "Master Val Gene" which dictates the other Val genes to become active is probably one of these regulatory proteins.

As such, ultimately Valhood could be controlled by a single gene (the Master Regulator Protein), while other genes carry Val Regulatory Domain (also called a Response element in molecular biology) in their DNA sequence before the 'Val genes'. Without the Val Master Protein (which would be called a Transcription Factor), these genes are not activated any more frequently (or even less frequently) than other genes that would carry more typical human response elements. As such, you can pass on these Val genes and they would ultimately function as normal human genes or as even-more recessive genes compared to normal human ones.

Heck, we could use this argument to (partially) explain the val'Holryn family! While I'm sure Henry and company have big plans to explain why the Holryn's act the way they do, from a genetic standpoint it could be argued that they are the result of a mix-mash of all the Val physical genes and even 'power genes' that entered into the human genome, only later having the Val Master Regulator Gene thrown in later. Of course, this brings up many other issues, so it probably isn't the case.

Anyway, I think I have tried my best to tie this up into a nice little bow. We'll see if any of these theories bear fruit
_________________
Cody Bergman

aka = Haakon Marcus val'Virdan, Priest of Nier (Divine 1.
aka = Dyabe val'Abebi, Templar of Althares (Divine 1.4)
aka = Jorma Ostoman, Battlemage of the Coryani Empire (Arcane 1.2)