Paradigm Concepts

[Andril]

Just in the fight with the cyclops and the Aztyrs. The group is facing 3 cyclops and 2 Aztyrs and the fight is brutal. The cyclops are hitting Avoidance 25 with no problems, doing 10-20 damage each time. Alright the group has bad luck, not hitting, or very low damage.
I looked now at the Enemy compilation file and was wondering, what is the stamina of the cyclops? In the mod it is 55, in the compilation file there are warriors listed with stamina 30 (the warrior guards). But then they have AR4. For damage I see them doing less with the sword, as fists are faster, but the special attacks are even more harsh. Should I have used them?
We are in the middle of the fight, so any help is appreciated.

[mininin]

I would imagine that you go with the stats in the mod as sometimes enemies are tweaked for specific encounters. I'd also check the penalties for failure- unless it says that the players are killed by failing then let it play out naturally; they get beaten up lots but learn from it and carry on. Your players could also try running away; many people seem to forget that this is always an option. Failing that somekind of environmental effect could happen to remove some of the bad guys or wait until only one person is left standing then have help turn up and penalise the xp. My preference would still be to play it as written and let the dice fall where they may, for what point in it being a game if there is no chance of failure and the consequences that that brings?

[Andril]

My only concern was being to harsh and making a mistake, but I will let it stand, if they fail, they loose the xp (and the rewards issued by the king), but can still proceed. If at least one gets the idea to run. But they don't even use fatepoints, so will continue to beat them up. If all get vanquished I might ask again for advise.

[mininin]

If they don't use fate points then maybe it would be worthwhile reminding them, the editing of dice rolls is good but more importanly tell them about the part where they are able to break the rules for a moment to achieve the heroic. If they can roleplay a dramatic idea that's fun and they spend the point then maybe your group can pull it back. If they are unimaginative in their approach then maybe the prospect of 'losing' will inspire them for the next time.

[EricGorman]

A good judge always tries to make sure the players know what their options are and perhaps nudges them with subtle tools toward a good outcome.

Things the players can do to make a fight easier: gang up on lone elements. use fate points wisely to make their best attacks land. Us control abilities to muddle the tactics of the opposition, uncork heavy damage options like murderous precision to gack a cyclopse with one blow (I seem to recall they're common humanoids...)

Things judges can do to make a fight easier for their players: Spread damage around rather than try to drop one specific character at a time. Have abandoned enemies find something else to do other than pursue (in this case eat canned dwarves), fudge the numbers in the players favor (do this sparing and with as light a touch as possible).

As a judge you don't have to let the players win. Particulalry in this scene since they can be saved. If they all get squashed have Leoducis save them. Players are often intitially grumpy when they don't get all the rewards but IME many of the best table stories come from those mods where everything didn't go right.
_________________
~Eisener val'Holryn. Holy Champion of Nier and haunted veteran of the crusade
~Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn, gave his soul to help free King Noen from the LLT Banner

[Njal Val'Assante]

And frankly, there is no intrinsic right of players to get max XP and rewards every time. Sometimes you screw up. Sometimes you solve a problem incorrectly, or offend someone. At the end of the day, XP, cash, and other rewards are something *earned*, not something you should get just for sitting down.
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Anthony Nijssen
Instigator. Causer of Chaos. Nobody Important.

[SamhainIA]

Tony, Respectfully I disagree with the underpinnings of your message.

To me Arcanis has been a game about choices, the very best adventures have been ones where the goals and actions of the opponent have been obfuscated or misleading. (For example the Hainia mod where the bad guy was a body jumper, or the empire vs Mensis interplay, where you didnt know whic was the "right" side )

The inestimable Eric Gorman said:
"A good judge always tries to make sure the players know what their options are and perhaps nudges them with subtle tools toward a good outcome. "

in an environment where the goal is "Good collective storytelling", "Mystery solving", or a "race to the finish" Eric's words are the keys to doing it well.

likewise the incalcuable Tony Nijssen said
"At the end of the day, XP, cash, and other rewards are something *earned*, not something you should get just for sitting down."

no, I think there is some baseline of sitting down, participating, and having fun. you have to think about the theoritcal judge that ruthlessly kills all the players in the first encounter, nobody likes that guy, and he dosent get asked to come back. (again IMO) A _good_ judge is one that allows the story to unfurl, and challenges the players and makes them fight for what they get, helps the newbies with realizing their characters potential, ramps up the encounters for the powerful and draws people into the story.

Unless there is a choice to do things in a weird way, people should get the XP and treasure, It really irks me when something is included that you have to have been stupid lucky or cheated to get. IIRC there is a certed sword in one of the exsisting mods like this.
_________________
--Josh Elliott
Harvester of Eastern Iowa and associated Dominions

[Njal Val'Assante]

I don't disagree with your arguments. In fact, I wholeheartedly support them. I too believe that Arcanis is a game about choice. I also believe that sometimes choice requires sacrifice, good outcomes require decisions that are detrimental to the self, and as with everything we strive for in Arcanis, actions have consequences.

Eric is absolutely right in his comments, and inevitably excellent in his phrasing thereof. Consequently, there is a fair bit of onus on each and every judge to provide the possibility of an enjoyable encounter. That is only one part of the picture, however. If the players absolutely refuse to reach out and actively participate in the storytelling, that is a problem that no judge, no matter how good, can solve unless the players are willing to be persuaded.

My comment of rewards being earned refers more to exactly what you commented on following it: "...participating, and having fun." So long as you are doing that, you should get the XP. However, what do you do in situations like this: The Heroes are asked to bring a bandit back alive for trial, so he can point a finger at the inside man he was working with. The Heroes decide instead to take matters into their own hands and kill him. Without the bandit's testimony, the mastermind of the plot cannot be discovered, and the module resolves without him being revealed. I would argue that the Heroes should receive full XP for how they dealt with the bandit, but none for "revealing the true villain" because they did not.

As for other rewards... that gets more complicated. Consider the following case: The Heroes are asked to acquire an item by two different parties. One group offers money, the other a choice of magic items. There is only one item which cannot be split, so the Heroes must decide which group gets the item, and consequently which rewards they get. Or they can choose to keep the item for themselves, and get neither reward. Fundamentally, neither the cash nor the magic items are intrinsically guaranteed to the Heroes, though they have the potential to get either. Or situational cases: In one of my modules, there is an item that can be given to worshipers of Saluwe, and only if a particular conclusion is reached. No one else can get the item. This is to say, not all rewards are meant for all players, and not all decisions in a module will lead to certain rewards.

I understand your concerns and frustrations in this regard though. Rewards should not be achievable only by luck or fraud. Rather, the ability to get them or not should generally be a conscious decision on the part of the players involving the world around them, rather than quirks of the module itself.

At the end of it all, I suppose my biggest complaint/problem is with players who are not actively playing and/or who expect that no matter what they do that they will get the maximum experience and treasure available. There are those who just sit down at a table, don't do anything but roll when instructed, spend their time not paying any attention, don't participate in any meaningful way (not even basic interaction with the other players), and yet feel entitled to every reward there is. There are also those who completely derail the modules, attack NPCs, and generally cause trouble who also expect full rewards, and I don't agree with that.

To borrow Eric's phrasing, "good collective storytelling" requires mutual participation. The onus cannot solely be on the judge. Beyond that, when people do participate, they can make decisions that derail the module. All the more so with the morally grey world of Arcanis, where very little is straightforward. This is why I don't see max XP and rewards as "rights", but rather as possibilities; it is possible to get them. It is also possible not to "get everything" but still have an excellent, enjoyable experience. And isn't that really the desired point?
_________________
Anthony Nijssen
Instigator. Causer of Chaos. Nobody Important.

[Andril]

Thanks for all the input, they got the hint that the cyclops have DR bludgeoning, and maybe they can work it out now. Although they roll abyssmal (but hey, that's the computer's fault).

[SamhainIA]

we went wayy off topic (as we are wont to do)

-sorry! i hope they kicked some cyclops butt
_________________
--Josh Elliott
Harvester of Eastern Iowa and associated Dominions

[Njal Val'Assante]

*tosses Andril a Fate Point*

Here, use this to make something cool happen in favour of the Heroes.
_________________
Anthony Nijssen
Instigator. Causer of Chaos. Nobody Important.

[hustonj]

[mininin]

Part of being a judge is exactly that: you judge what the players actions are and then try to draw meaningful and logical results from them. The adventure is just one path that they can follow, if they go about things in a slightly different manner or complete objectives in unforeseen ways then that is what the judge is there to arbitrate. If it was a computer game it would be built on the sandbox model rather than a linear path.

[EricGorman]

[Andril]

Now another question - does a shield slam which hits but does not do any damage work against a cyclop (from a mdeium creature trying to knock a large creature prone)? Is there anything to take the size difference into account? I am inclined to rule no, but would like some opinion on it please.